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From the English, Mandarin should be 滿州話which brought in to inside Great Wall from Ching Dynasty. The real Beijingese is not as easy to understand as OUR Mandarin. Even the local people is quite proud of their language, even a little bit arrogant to other people who doesn't speak the way they are : curl to some extent and a lot of words between the throats and floating in the air. Which barely hardly to be understood. ^o) So, we speak Mandarin but not Beijinese.(Y) btw, I think China should be like European Union, I mean a lot of independent countries.;-) http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=706401682 mandarin 一詞最早來源於明朝，在利馬竇的文章中，就將官話寫成mandarin ，mandar在英語中英文manda-的這個詞根，就是“政府的”“行政的”意思。 英國的首相曾經叫mandatory minister（意為行政官員） 同一詞根，類似詞彙還有,比如mandate（政府權力；命令），mandation（行政權力），mandary（官方的，行政的），mandatory（命令的，强迫的） mandarin在英語的本意，是“行政推廣的語言”的意思，就是“官話”意思的英語構詞而已，跟滿人無任何關係. 滿人在英語裡是manchu，完全不是manda-詞根的，更不是mandarin一詞， 在American Heritage Dictionary中mandarin的辭源： From Spanish mandarín from Portuguese mandarim from Malay mëntëri from Sanskrit mantrº mantrin-[ counselor ] from mantra¡[ counsel ] (澳門從明朝1557年開始被葡萄牙人租借。) http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/%E6%BB%BF%E8%AA%9E 滿語為滿洲人所使用的語言。屬阿爾泰語系通古斯語族滿語支。滿文是在蒙古文的基礎上加以改進而成的一種豎直書寫的拼音文字。 滿語主從複句比較發達，語法與漢語區別很大，與日語及韓語接近，部分學者將之共列阿爾泰語系。如： Abka de deyere gasha bi（天空有飛鳥） http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E5%AE%98%E8%AF%9D 過去有人稱整個官話方言為北方方言，實際上，西南官話、江淮官話兩大官話方言人口都分佈在南方。 並且，作為中國標準語的官話，東晉、南北朝以來分為南北兩支，而最早以晉代中原雅音為基礎的南京官話曾經長期是中國的官方語言。中原雅音南移，作爲中國官方語言的官話逐漸分為南北兩支。明滅元朝，定都南京，「壹以中原雅音為正」，即以南京音為基礎音系，南京官話為國家標準語音。 北方官話直到清代中葉以後才逐漸取代江淮方言系的南方官話成為中國官方的標準語。明清時期來華的西方傳教士所流行的中國話，基本上是以南京官話為標準，直到民國初年西方傳教士主持的「華語正音會」，也以南京音為標準。清末編審國語及民國確定新國音以後，北京官話成爲中國官方的標準語
問這個問題的西方人，明顯屬於受教育很差的那種，不能怪他們 就簡單告訴他們： from TW speak Mandarin! that's all!
★這篇討論主要是針對英文方面的交流來討論 請不要究個人的意識型態、政治主張....進行中文的筆戰★ 想討論這個話題 不過又有點怕怕的 因為這似乎是個有點容易引來不必要筆戰的話題(請大家放輕鬆來討論哦!!) 不過卻也是我在紐澳時還滿常被西方人問的問題 每次當他們問 Where are you from? 我回答 I am Taiwanese 後 就會有人問 那你們是說Taiwanese還是Chinese啊 不然就是問 那為什麼Taiwanese和大陸人Chinese的語言是相同的??? 還有一些對亞洲國家(中、日、韓....)完全沒概念的 會認為我們和日本人、韓國人說的都是同一種語言，彼此是可以溝通的.... 這也不能怪他們啦 就像我也不一定聽的出德文和西班牙文的不同啦....... 我不是語言學家只能用一點點自己的理解來和他們解釋： 在台灣大部分的人會台語Taiwanese 它是中文的方言dialect的一種(廣東話也是方言的一種) 北京話(or普通話)Mandarin則是台灣的官方語言official language 中國大陸的官方語言也是北京話(or普通話) 用詞上雖然會有些不同 就像美式英文American English和英式英文British English一樣 所以我們在說話上的溝通是沒問題的 不過在寫字方面 台灣用的是正體中文traditional Chinese 大陸用的是簡體中文 Simplified Chinese 算是簡化過simplified的中文字 我們也還是可以理解簡體中文啦 Most of Taiwanese speak Taiwanese. It is one dialect of Chinese. (Cantonese is another one of the Chinese dialect.) Mandarin is our official language in Taiwan. That is why we also speak Mandarin. Mandarin is the official language of mainland China as well. Some terms may be different. Just like American English and British English.... So it is no problem for us to communicate. For writing, we use traditional Chinese in Taiwan, but they use Simplified Chinese in China. The characters are simplified, but we can still understand. 至於中、日、韓...是不是說同一種語言 當然不是啦......... 只是有些詞的發音或許很像 所以有時我們可以猜的出一些些 而且我們使用的漢字Chinese character在日本和韓國也有部分被使用在他們的語言中 所以有的時侯我們可以寫一些漢字來溝通 Of course Chinese, Japanese, Korean are not the same. Just some terms may be sound similar, so we can guess a bit sometimes. And some Chinese characters we use are also used in some part of their language. so sometimes we can communicate by writing some characters. 以上是我的一些淺見啦 也想聽聽有沒有其他的說法囉!!!!! 關於Mandarin的討論 http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1607012301247 http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1106120109132 說老實話, 你把他們的好奇心高估了. 還有你真認為他們會知道Mandarin是北京的? Dan Brown那種自以為學富五車的都會寫出什麼Mandarin symbols跟Kanji language這種白痴的東西, 書大家也照樣買... 就說你在學校學的是中文就可以了. 很多人台灣泰國都搞不清楚的, 八成還想說你泰國人不是該講泰文嗎....(殘酷的事實, 紐澳一堆人從小到大沒念過甚麼地理的)
我只能說大家都是受到儒家思想的教化 所以在語言文字上都會有所相似,這是沒辦法避免的
Well, I will say, it's the history or the truth.:-D a-ying : look at upstairs, do you still think it's nothing political here ?
Agree, :-D They are all different. if 美人, the hostess, is correct: Taiwanese is the national language 國語for 唐 Dynasty. That's why the Japanese 片假名is much easier to learn , if you compare the character they have simplified from in the pronunciation of Taiwanese. while Haga is the 國語 for 漢dynasty. anyway, I think this issue or debate is not what we can avoid, so better get more knowledge or study about that. Then you can show the foreigners something that is really knowledgeable. Basically, we are many languages sharing the same character, like the European languages.(Or, we are even not that close to each other in the language....) 其實以語言學的角度來看 台灣閩南語和國語(普通話)是不一樣的語言 不可以說是dialect只可以說是regional language (以上兩者在中文的翻譯都是"方言") dialect是像北京的普通話和台灣的國語 美式英語和英式英語大致上可以互通 但又不完全相同的語言 但是台灣閩南語和北京話Mandarin Chinese是不一樣的語言 有不同的語法、語音和構詞等等語言學的分類 台灣漢族語言主要有 台灣北京官話(也有人說是台北中文)， Taiwan/Taiwanese Mandarin Chinese 台灣閩南語(政治上覺得用"台語"不夠正確)， Taiwan/Taiwanese Southern Min 台灣客家話， Taiwan/Taiwanese Hakka 這一些東西的關係都是不同的語言喔 就像西班牙語之於義大利語一般 原住民族的語言有至少二十種以上 而且還有很多有爭議正在界定中就不附上了 另外我們也不喜歡說台灣北京官話是"官方語言"(因為可能牽涉政治上的意識型態) 而比較喜歡說他是"共同語言" (lingua franca) 那是不同語言使用者用來互相溝通的語言 比如說中國的lingua franca就是普通話 (一個維吾爾人和一個苗人要溝通應該會用的語言) 台灣的lingua franca是北京話 (一個越南移民和阿美族人溝通用的語言) 目前國際經濟和科學上的lingua franca是英語 (一個莫三比克科學家和捷克科學家溝通的語言)
From the English, Mandarin should be 滿州話which brought in to inside Great Wall from Ching Dynasty. The real Beijingese is not as easy to understand as OUR Mandarin. Even the local people is quite proud of their language, even a little bit arrogant to other people who doesn't speak the way they are : curl to some extent and a lot of words between the throats and floating in the air. Which barely hardly to be understood. ^o) So, we speak Mandarin but not Beijinese.(Y) btw, I think China should be like European Union, I mean a lot of independent countries.;-) ★這篇討論主要是針對英文方面的交流來討論 請不要究個人的意識型態、政治主張....進行中文的筆戰★ 想討論這個話題 不過又有點怕怕的 因為這似乎是個有點容易引來不必要筆戰的話題(請大家放輕鬆來討論哦!!) 不過卻也是我在紐澳時還滿常被西方人問的問題 每次當他們問 Where are you from? 我回答 I am Taiwanese 後 就會有人問 那你們是說Taiwanese還是Chinese啊 不然就是問 那為什麼Taiwanese和大陸人Chinese的語言是相同的??? 還有一些對亞洲國家(中、日、韓....)完全沒概念的 會認為我們和日本人、韓國人說的都是同一種語言，彼此是可以溝通的.... 這也不能怪他們啦 就像我也不一定聽的出德文和西班牙文的不同啦....... 我不是語言學家只能用一點點自己的理解來和他們解釋： 在台灣大部分的人會台語Taiwanese 它是中文的方言dialect的一種(廣東話也是方言的一種) 北京話(or普通話)Mandarin則是台灣的官方語言official language 中國大陸的官方語言也是北京話(or普通話) 用詞上雖然會有些不同 就像美式英文American English和英式英文British English一樣 所以我們在說話上的溝通是沒問題的 不過在寫字方面 台灣用的是正體中文traditional Chinese 大陸用的是簡體中文 Simplified Chinese 算是簡化過simplified的中文字 我們也還是可以理解簡體中文啦 Most of Taiwanese speak Taiwanese. It is one dialect of Chinese. (Cantonese is another one of the Chinese dialect.) Mandarin is our official language in Taiwan. That is why we also speak Mandarin. Mandarin is the official language of mainland China as well. Some terms may be different. Just like American English and British English.... So it is no problem for us to communicate. For writing, we use traditional Chinese in Taiwan, but they use Simplified Chinese in China. The characters are simplified, but we can still understand. 至於中、日、韓...是不是說同一種語言 當然不是啦......... 只是有些詞的發音或許很像 所以有時我們可以猜的出一些些 而且我們使用的漢字Chinese character在日本和韓國也有部分被使用在他們的語言中 所以有的時侯我們可以寫一些漢字來溝通 Of course Chinese, Japanese, Korean are not the same. Just some terms may be sound similar, so we can guess a bit sometimes. And some Chinese characters we use are also used in some part of their language. so sometimes we can communicate by writing some characters. 以上是我的一些淺見啦 也想聽聽有沒有其他的說法囉!!!!! 關於Mandarin的討論 http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1607012301247 http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1106120109132
上次跟西班牙人解釋 我的說法是一般使用Mandarin 像是在學校之類的 但有些 像是台語或是客家話算是方言 有些老人不會Mandarin只會方言 而台語因為日本統治過的關係 有些詞彙跟日語是一樣的 英文不好 解釋的我滿頭大汗...
Mandarin並非北京話的意思吧...不過就是普通話的意思啊... 只有北京腔的中文. 或者是台灣腔的中文(或者是福建腔 高雄腔 山東腔............) 台灣腔的中文應該是比較接近南京的官話 (舊中華民國首都) 去北京的時候. 北京人講話有時候我都聽不太懂. 尤其是計程車司機講話... 我講話北京人有時候也聽不懂 就跟英國人講話美國人可能有時候也很難聽懂一樣 下次要解釋. 就用British English或者是American English的差異來解釋就好了嘛 大家都說中文. 可是口音不同. ~~~~
那为什么Taiwanese和大陆人Chinese的语言是相同的???－－那为什么singaporean和大陆人的中文也是一样 很简单，都是华人，都是说同一种mandarin啊
在马来西亚更搞笑 华人讲华语，中国人就会问 “你也会华语？ 你是哪里来的？” 其实我也有认真的问过长辈，我们也是中国人， 只是我们的祖先不知道为何大老远从中国来到马来西亚则片土地落地生根， 就这样马来西亚有了华人。 :-)
其實普通話也不全是以北京話為基礎.這個要追溯到孫先生剛全國統一時期了 應該這麼說.當初梁啟超為教育部部長.要推行全國語言統一 要以那裡的地方話為普通話.問題來了....當初推行革命的以廣東人居多 可後來加入革命事業的.又以北方人居多.就這麼僵持不下 只好靠國民大會投票來決定了.36比35票.就差一票. 不然現在普通話就變成廣東話了. 普通話其實是以北京話做基礎的.但別忘了.當初的北洋軍閥.是以東北人居多 所以普通話基本上是北京話+東北話形成的 這不難去想像.大陸的普通話幾乎都是沒捲舌的. 而且你去看中央台報新聞.也是要求一個字一個字講的很清楚的. 真正北京人在說話.嘴巴都懶得開口.好像字都含在舌頭下.或舌後根 還有些北京當地的用詞.你很難在南方聽的見.很多人也聽不懂. 台灣是有很多福建閩南過來的沒錯.可是這中間被日本統治了幾十年 再加上一直在接收許多的外來文化.還有一些年輕人獨創自己的語言. 這就是台語. 可是國語方面跟大陸還是都一樣的.就是用詞.音調和語氣方面有差異性而已 但如果你去廈門講閩南話.講慢點.他們都聽的懂. 可是你會感覺怪怪地.因為他們的閩南話是讀音.台灣是唸音. 還是能溝通啦. 老外要是全都懂得這裡面文化差異的話.那我們也別混了. 甚至該自我檢討檢討了.
well, i see nothing political emotional here. but, if you insist, i will say because, that's the origin of all these messes.... a-ying : look at upstairs, do you still think it's nothing political here ?
台湾人目前说北京话是中华民国当初定下来的, 而其根本原因是中国近代的首都一直在北京. 近代定都北京也是由其原因的, 历来中国南方富饶,人民聪明勤劳, 但生活过于安逸, 整个城市的氛围太过花天酒地, 醉生梦死, 所以定都南京,杭州的时间都不长就经历了亡国的命运. 历史上北方屡遭游牧民族骚扰, 历来是中国皇帝的心头大患, 所以秦始皇建长城, 汉武帝数次亲征匈奴, 而后来明朝朱棣更是决定将首都从南京迁到北京..... 看看中国这几千来的历史,再想想两岸这几十年的事情, 对我们的未来能看得更清楚些.
the most difference shall not be language only, but the culture difference you and I speak same language doesn't mean we have same culture and faith in mind pls don't forget in TWN also got many different languages: mandarin, Taiwanese, Haka... and some political guys just use the language difference to tell if you are the original Taiwanese or not, funny Though what's the different? We are all born on same and only one earth, aren't we? frankly this is just one another non-sense topic let go of this kinda bored, pls "Where are you from?" "I am from Taiwan" "Wow... I know nothing about Taiwan" "hahaha.... then you must pretend you are an idiot" Alex is a smart guy, I like the way he deals with this issue. you should campaign for a legislator, Alex, Haha~
the most difference shall not be language only, but the culture difference you and I speak same language doesn't mean we have same culture and faith in mind pls don't forget in TWN also got many different languages: mandarin, Taiwanese, Haka... and some political guys just use the language difference to tell if you are the original Taiwanese or not, funny Though what's the different? We are all born on same and only one earth, aren't we? frankly this is just one another non-sense topic let go of this kinda bored, pls "Where are you from?" "I am from Taiwan" "Wow... I know nothing about Taiwan" "hahaha.... then you must pretend you are an idiot"
well, i see nothing political emotional here. but, if you insist, i will say because, that's the origin of all these messes.... 您開版之初, 就擔心會引起政治情緒, 這樣的擔心, 雖不中亦不遠矣. It seems that things just get political after all when you try to discuss a simple issue concerns about Taiwan and China.
真是奇妙的星期五下午 突然之間讓這個一個多月沒人理的話題 得到這麼多的回應 感謝各位精彩的回覆啦!!! 您開版之初, 就擔心會引起政治情緒, 這樣的擔心, 雖不中亦不遠矣. It seems that things just get political after all when you try to discuss a simple issue concerns about Taiwan and China.
I have told them in differents aspects: 1. generally: a. different languages(Guandongese/ the language used in HK and Guandong, Taiwanese/ the main language in Taiwan and the national or major language in Tang dynasty, Haganese which is the national language for Han dynasty and the 2nd majority language in Taiwan, Manderin which is the national / major language after Ching dynasty .....but sharing same characters, which is the similar case for b. Spanish, English, German, French, Itallian.... basically pronouce different, but use the same thing for writing c. no, we don't understand each other in different language. d. English is like Manderin. or Manderin is like English: It's the language that most people can use to communicate each other. 2. history: the full name for Taiwan is Republic of China(R.O.C.) which is founded in 1911 and was the ruler for the whole China until the Communist changed the world and was forced to move to Taiwan. The China you know is PRC(people's republic of China) it was founded after world war two. It's like East and west Germany. But the major different is East Germany is 1/3 of West Germany while the population of Taiwan is only 1/50 or less than the PRC which is much smaller. So, Taiwan has been the ruler/ government for whole China, but the china you know (PRC) has NEVER been the ruler in Taiwan. basically, you can shup up those non-independant-Chinese, because they have only listen to their government, and never think or know about this fact. 3.Please don't call yourself Chinese anymore, because for most people's understanding, it's for the other side. I will tell the foreigners that we have to give that name to the PRC, for the status quo... 4. Where is Taiwan : between Japan and HongKong, beside Pacific Ocean ..........
相同的種族可以用一種共通語言來溝通是文化進步的表現，彊界和國家可以改變的，而種族則永遠不會改變。
And you are a Taiwanese, don't forget that. When people describe me as Chinese, I think they are talking about my ethnicity and descent in most of the cases. It is just like Chinese American, or Malaysian Chinese. It is not political. I guess we can also follow the examples by saying we are Chinese Taiwanese or Taiwanese Chinese.
真是奇妙的星期五下午 突然之間讓這個一個多月沒人理的話題 得到這麼多的回應 感謝各位精彩的回覆啦!!!
問來自哪, 當然一定是說Taiwan/Taiwanese 但被詢問台灣人都什麼語時, Chinese 一詞確實讓很多外國人傻傻分不清 我是都只簡單的說我們是2個不同的國家, 但來自相同的文化傳統 China and Taiwan are different countries, but we from a same traditional culture. 再根據對方背景, 舉一個他比較瞭的語言說明 (下選一個就可,樓上有寫範例了抄下來) .就像說英語的不是只有英國人喔, 比如美加.紐澳啦 Americans.English.Canadians.Ozs and Kiwis , they all speak English as official language, but they are not one country. right ?! .說西班牙話的也不只有西班牙人喔, 比如中南美洲很多國家巴拿馬秘魯啦 類推 .說阿拉伯語的不是只有中東國家喔, 比如北非很多國家摩洛哥啦 類推 .說中文的還有新加坡跟一部份的馬來西亞人喔, 我們也不是同個國家喔 類推 除非對方非常想再瞭解, 不然簡單舉個例別人就懂了,別講太多, 別人更亂....
跟樓上講的一樣 就跟他講 美國 加拿大 英國 紐西蘭 澳洲 不也都講英文? 有些非洲國家的官方語言也是英文阿 那... 為什麼紐西蘭人不講紐西蘭話阿? 呵 想到一件事 某次去髮廊洗頭 洗頭小妹找我聊天 她們老闆有給她講說 我去澳洲玩 小妹問我 請問澳洲人是不是講澳語? 8-)
Americans.English.Canadians.Ozs and Kiwis , they all speak English as official language, but are they one country ? Of course not! I will come up with this answer when asked of your question.
I was also asked of the same question by many foreigners. This is what I often replied. I don't feel upset if people said I'm Chinese. I'll get really offended if people said that I'm from China. I often rebut by saying that we are a democratic country with our own elected president, while China is a communist country. And you are a Taiwanese, don't forget that.
I was also asked of the same question by many foreigners. This is what I often replied. I don't feel upset if people said I'm Chinese. I'll get really offended if people said that I'm from China. I often rebut by saying that we are a democratic country with our own elected president, while China is a communist country.
因為偉大的秦始皇 統一了語言, 選用現在的國語作標準語言....秦始皇只有(書同文.車同軌) 當時的官方語言是陜西話吧?*-)
★這篇討論主要是針對英文方面的交流來 Where are you from? I am Taiwanese Most of Taiwanese speak Taiwanese. It is one dialect of Chinese. (Cantonese is another one of the Chinese dialect.) Mandarin is our official language in Taiwan. That is why we also speak Mandarin. Mandarin is the official language of mainland China as well. Some terms may be different. Just like American English and British English.... So it is no problem for us to communicate. For writing, we use traditional Chinese in Taiwan, but they use Simplified Chinese in China. The characters are simplified, but we can still understand. Of course Chinese, Japanese, Korean are not the same. Just some terms may be sound similar, so we can guess a bit sometimes. And some Chinese characters we use are also used in some part of their language. so sometimes we can communicate by writing some characters. 以上是我的一些淺見啦 也想聽聽有沒有其他的說法囉!!!!! qid=1106120109132[/url] I would say : China and Taiwan are two countries, not one. We both speak Mandarin but Taiwan use Traditional Chinese as writing character, China use Simplified Chinese. The major difference between Taiwan and China is this. China is a dictatorial regime while Taiwan is a democratic country.
因為偉大的秦始皇 統一了語言, 選用現在的國語作標準語言....
其實大陸北方的普通話捲舌比較多， 所以我們香港人有時候很難聽得懂北京人說的普通話， 不知道你們會不會？不過個人來說我就聽得懂， 還有因為看得比較多的簡體小說， 所以也懂得寫簡體字。 有些詞語也會不同，不過好像也很容易明白。 其實對於我來說： 外國人也是同一個模樣 ＾口＾ 我想在外國人的眼中東方人也是同一個模樣吧 －＿－”
★這篇討論主要是針對英文方面的交流來討論 請不要究個人的意識型態、政治主張....進行中文的筆戰★ 想討論這個話題 不過又有點怕怕的 因為這似乎是個有點容易引來不必要筆戰的話題(請大家放輕鬆來討論哦!!) 不過卻也是我在紐澳時還滿常被西方人問的問題 每次當他們問 Where are you from? 我回答 I am Taiwanese 後 就會有人問 那你們是說Taiwanese還是Chinese啊 不然就是問 那為什麼Taiwanese和大陸人Chinese的語言是相同的??? 還有一些對亞洲國家(中、日、韓....)完全沒概念的 會認為我們和日本人、韓國人說的都是同一種語言，彼此是可以溝通的.... 這也不能怪他們啦 就像我也不一定聽的出德文和西班牙文的不同啦....... 我不是語言學家只能用一點點自己的理解來和他們解釋： 在台灣大部分的人會台語Taiwanese 它是中文的方言dialect的一種(廣東話也是方言的一種) 北京話(or普通話)Mandarin則是台灣的官方語言official language 中國大陸的官方語言也是北京話(or普通話) 用詞上雖然會有些不同 就像美式英文American English和英式英文British English一樣 所以我們在說話上的溝通是沒問題的 不過在寫字方面 台灣用的是正體中文traditional Chinese 大陸用的是簡體中文 Simplified Chinese 算是簡化過simplified的中文字 我們也還是可以理解簡體中文啦 Most of Taiwanese speak Taiwanese. It is one dialect of Chinese. (Cantonese is another one of the Chinese dialect.) Mandarin is our official language in Taiwan. That is why we also speak Mandarin. Mandarin is the official language of mainland China as well. Some terms may be different. Just like American English and British English.... So it is no problem for us to communicate. For writing, we use traditional Chinese in Taiwan, but they use Simplified Chinese in China. The characters are simplified, but we can still understand. 至於中、日、韓...是不是說同一種語言 當然不是啦......... 只是有些詞的發音或許很像 所以有時我們可以猜的出一些些 而且我們使用的漢字Chinese character在日本和韓國也有部分被使用在他們的語言中 所以有的時侯我們可以寫一些漢字來溝通 Of course Chinese, Japanese, Korean are not the same. Just some terms may be sound similar, so we can guess a bit sometimes. And some Chinese characters we use are also used in some part of their language. so sometimes we can communicate by writing some characters. 以上是我的一些淺見啦 也想聽聽有沒有其他的說法囉!!!!! 關於Mandarin的討論 http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1607012301247 http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1106120109132